Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 21, 2014

Not quite sure what the author means by number 2. We do not promise to do anything for God in order to be saved (Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). Faith and repentance in Jesus Christ, plus nothing, minus nothing, is how we are saved. If there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation, then most assuredly there is nothing we can do to keep it. The thief on the cross is a good example of this. He didn't promise Jesus He would change his lifestyle, be sanctified, so that he could be saved. He didn't promise he would live for him. How could he, he would be dead in a matter of hours. Yet Jesus told him that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day. What did the thief do to be saved? He admitted he was a sinner, that Jesus was who He said He was (God), and he called on Jesus to save him. The same is true today. We are saved the same way. Now, of course, if a person really does accept Christ as Savior, then yes, their should be evidence of his or her conversion. If one is truly saved then transformation will take place. And yes, I believe that there are MANY false professions of faith, but I can't change the message of salvation i. e. "If you want to be saved you must give up this and that" in order to make sure that doesn't happen. Only God knows the heart, only He can know if the profession was genuine or not. There are many people who look like they are saved and sanctified for Christ that are not (Matt. 7:21-23). Discipleship, Lordship, and the rest come only AFTER a person is saved. And yes, we should preach that all of them need to be practiced as children of God.

Bill Williams

commented on Jan 21, 2014

"Now, of course, if a person really does accept Christ as Savior, then yes, their should be evidence of his or her conversion. If one is truly saved then transformation will take place." I think that's all the author means by #2. I don't see anything there to suggest earning salvation or adding to salvation or changing the message of salvation or anything like that. But you're clarifications are good.

Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 21, 2014

I don't know if I agree with you Bill. The point indeed seems to link the two together.To me he is saying, we are to preach "If you are going to be truly saved, then you must be willing to sanctify yourself in order to be saved." Read it again and tell me it cannot be taken that way. Maybe the author himself will clarify it if he reads the comments as other authors at times.

Bill Williams

commented on Jan 21, 2014

I read it again, but I still don't see him saying that. MAYBE, if you just took the numbered point without the explanation below it, you could take it that way. Maybe. :) I'd still think it was a bit of a stretch, but without the context I suppose it would be possible to stretch it that far! But the explanation below the point clearly seems to link sanctification as EVIDENCE of salvation (a word you yourself used), not the cause of salvation. What he seems to be saying is, "Don't preach Christianity as if it isn't going to make any change in one's life." At least, that's how I understood it...by the way, haven't seen you here in a while. Happy new year (belated, of course)!

Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 21, 2014

Happy New Year to you also Bill (belated of course) : ) I still don't think it is a "stretch" to believe the author is connecting the two even when reading the context. I guess without the author himself clarifying the point, we will just have to agree to disagree. To me, it needs a bit more clarification.

Bill Williams

commented on Jan 21, 2014

oops, meant to post this under your reply: "To me, it needs a bit more clarification." Hey, fair enough. Take care!

Ephraim Phaka

commented on Oct 29, 2024

I believe the example of a thief is good, however if you want to demonstrate a life after being saved then that example is irrelevant. After being saved we do not die immediately just like the thief, but we have an opportunity to live a transformed lives. And this is what point number 2 is addressing, the evidence or changed lives indicating we no longer live in sin.

Ephraim Phaka

commented on Oct 29, 2024

I believe the example of a thief is good, however if you want to demonstrate a life after being saved then that example is irrelevant. After being saved we do not die immediately just like the thief, but we have an opportunity to live a transformed lives. And this is what point number 2 is addressing, the evidence or changed lives indicating we no longer live in sin.

Troy Heald

commented on Jan 21, 2014

I agree with Bill, if there is genuine salvation there will begin a work of santification (done by the work of Christ thru us not us on our own.) That santification will work in different speeds for different people but it will begin and will never be complete this side of heaven. We need to be preaching that the santification is a sign of genuine salvation. If there is no santification going on than we have to question if there is genuine salvation. Again, not everyone will grow at the same pace. Some may still be struggling with sinful habits, or sinful natures and attitudes that may take time but are they growing (even if slowly) is the question that must be asked.

Robert Macmillan

commented on Jan 21, 2014

I also agree with both Bill and Troy. I would add that I agree with the author that the pulpit is at least partly to blame. Preaching a man centered message, minimizing the teachings of Christ in order to make coming to Jesus more palatable and the promotion of the cheap grace or hyper grace are all harmful to the body of Christ.

Carl Jones

commented on Jan 21, 2014

I would add we should never preach the cross with the empty tomb. Many love the cross, as do I, but too many remain there. The purpose of the cross was to buy our freedom to live. That life is given via the empty tomb. We are saved that we might live!

Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 21, 2014

Belief in the resurrection is certainly necessary for salvation (Romans 10:9). Again, the theif on the cross believed Jesus would rise again, he said, "Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." A dead man doesn't have a kingdom.

Ken Stokes

commented on Jan 24, 2014

Remember....the thief on the cross still was under the Old Covenant....not the new. Jesus had not died yet!

Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 25, 2014

Yes he was still under the Old Covenant, but people were still saved the same way. Before the cross they looked forward to the Perfect Sacrifice. The fulfillment of all the Old Testament types and figures. But they were still saved by grace through faith. No one was EVER saved by keep the Old Testament Law. They looked forward to the cross, we look back to the cross, but it's still always been the cross. The thief was saved by believing he was a sinner, that Jesus was that sacrifice, and that He would rise again. Look at the account in Luke 23:39-42 and you see we are saved in the exact same way.

Carl Jones

commented on Jan 21, 2014

Sorry. I intended to say "...preach the cross without the empty tomb." Bronchitis and meds will cause you to "tp ypo". :-)

Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 21, 2014

Carl, I understood what you meant. : ) Hope you feel better soon.

Bill Williams

commented on Jan 21, 2014

"To me, it needs a bit more clarification." Hey, fair enough. Take care!

Leroy Thomas

commented on Jan 21, 2014

I love this discussion. I see great minds in this discussion. Let's remember it is the sum of God's word that counts. Let's keep it simple. Sanctification means to be holy. Was it not said to all children of God "to be holy because He that called you is holy. The author is right not many pulpits preach this gospel piece, which is why we see everything going on in Christendom but what is holy before the eyes of almighty God.

Pastor Jeff Hughes

commented on Jan 22, 2014

I think the author's article is spot on...and I do think that when folks hear that gospel message they need to understand that they should expect God to change them. People are to "count the cost", and understand what they are bound to experience. This is not salvation by works; if one does not experience change at least to some degree, then their "faith without works is dead", it was DOA to begin with. Great points of view, good discussion!

Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 22, 2014

Jeff, when Jesus tells us to "count the cost" He is talking about discipleship, not salvation, the two are different and must be distinguished. Read Luke 14:25-33 for the context. We do not have to hate father, mother, wife, children, and so on to be saved. The whole passage speaks of discipleship. Also Paul wrote again and again that faith apart from works is the only thing that saves us (Romans 4:1-5 for example). I can see that you believe this. Many people then suppose an apparent contradiction in James when he says "fatih without works is dead." So how do we harmonize these two teachings? James has already done this with the simple word "brethren" in verse 14. Again, we need to read the verse you quoted in context. Paul was explaining how sinners become saints. But James was explaining how believers in Christ grow in their faith. James was dealing with the issue of sanctification or Christian growth; Paul was dealing with the matter of salvation. When James uses the word "saved" he is referring to the justification of the believer, not the justification of the sinner. Salvation has three tenses; We are saved from the penalty of sin, then as we grow we are saved from the power of sin, and one day when we get to heaven we will be saved from the presence of sin. James is referring to the second. James is concerned about BELIEVERS becoming dead spirituall because of carnal living. In other words, these two apostles were writing about two different groups of people, sinners and saints. James is talking to people who want to know what it takes to live life to the fullest for God. One thing it takes is good works. I'm sure you know all this. But this is something that is not necessary for people to know before they are saved. Do I preach that Jesus will change your life if you receive Him as your Savior? Of course. But my main focus is letting them know that if they die without Christ they will spend eternity in a lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). After all, that is the very point of salvation, what you are saved from. Jesus came to seek and to SAVE that which was lost. He doesn't save us from a carnal life, He saves us from eternal fire. Jude 23 "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire;..." Again, I'm not sure exactly what the author means by point two. To me he is saying, we are to preach "If you are going to be truly saved, then you must be willing to sanctify yourself in order to be saved," which is wrong. If he doesn't mean this, I think he should have made this point a bit clearer.

Rev. Larry West

commented on Jan 22, 2014

I have been greatly disappointed with many of the sermons and articles on Sermon Central. However, this one is excellent. I will give Mr. Murrell all credit, but I plan on sharing this with my congregation and ministers in my church!

Stephen Belokur

commented on Jan 22, 2014

Amen!!!

Jeff Needleman

commented on Jan 22, 2014

I see, all too often that salvation and works are mixed up, as are our spiritual and corporal selves. Salvation is at no cost to us, (grace), but then we have responsibilities! I love what the author has written. I have seen all too often the decision to be follower of Christ without the commitment to grow spiritually and emotionally!

Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 22, 2014

So Jeff, are you saying that if a person is to be saved we must tell them that they must commit to live for Christ, or they can't be saved? Isn't that telling them that they must be at least willing to work for their salvation? Again, did the thief on the cross make a decision to be a follower of Christ with the commitment that he would grow spiritually and emotionally? And don't say that he was an exception. God is no respector of persons, EVERYONE comes to Christ in the same way! If we are to commit to grow spiritually and emotionally before we make a decision to follow Christ, then how much are we supposed to promise to commit before we get saved? Do you follow Christ perfectly? Do you always do His will? God's standards are PEFECTION, and NONE of us measure up, EVER. That is why salvation is by GRACE alone. No promises to God, just faith and repentance in His Son. Again, as I've stated, there are MANY false professions made, but just because that is so, we are not supposed to change the message of salvation. Take Lot for example. Read the account of his life in Genesis and show me anywhere where we find he lived a commited life to God. The opposite is true. In fact we would NEVER know that Lot was a child of God by the way he lived his life. The only reason we know Lot was a child of God is because of what we read in 2 Peter 2:7-8 "And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)" Only a child of God can be called righteous. Only God knows the heart. Some people who do not look saved, are, and some who look saved, aren't. We are commanded to preach the grace of God and let Him "worry" about who is genuinely saved. If I have misunderstood what you have said, them please forgive me. But I have answered what I think you are sayin.

Timothy Chow

commented on Jan 23, 2014

The gospel is the gospel of the Kingdom. We preach Jesus is both Saviour and King. We are talking about having to work for your salvation but the absolute need for full, total surrender and submission to Jesus before anyone can enter the Kingdom. God is full of grace and mercy but we come to Him on His terms.

Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 23, 2014

Timothy, where in the Word of God does it say that in order to get to heaven we must be fully and totally surrendered to Jesus? Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." And verse 13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" Gal. 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." And Gal. 3:1-3 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Those are "His terms."

Timothy Chow

commented on Jan 24, 2014

The very verses you quoted says if we would confess Jesus as Lord means we acknowledge Him as Lord. Trust you understand what it means when we call Him Lord.

Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 24, 2014

Yes, it means that Jesus is God. You must believe that Jesus is the Lord to be saved. This isn't speaking about Lordship salvation. Phil. 2:10-11 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." EVERY tongue will confess one day that Jesus is Lord, God. But for those who did not trust Him as Savior in life it will be too late. What about the other verses I quoted? What do you do with them?

Jeff Needleman

commented on Jan 23, 2014

Dennis: you do not get it! This is apples and oranges. We are washed clean spiritually and get to live in Heaven. Before we get there, we have to live on Earth. Under the Holy Spirit's guidance we get to grow emotionally, and then we can better minister to, and pastor the flock. Don't mix the two up!

Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 23, 2014

Jeff, maybe you don't understand what I am saying so let me be very clear here. In point 2 the author seems to suggest that if we are to preach the message of salvation, we need to also preach that if you want to get saved, you must promise to sanctify yourself, to change your life. That is conditional salvation. "If you promise to do this, then I will save you." We come to Christ by trusting in His finished work on the cross and resurrection. Our faith and repentence saves us by the grace of God, not by my promising to live for Him after I am saved. Now as I have ALREADY stated, yes, after we are saved we are supposed to do works for God (Eph. 2:10). But this is AFTER we are saved, not a condition for salvation. I would say back to you, do not mix the two up. Even if I am misunderstanding the author, what I am saying is still true! We are not saved by works or promising to live for God in order to be saved. Please show me from the Bible where I am wrong on this issue.

Jeff Needleman

commented on Jan 24, 2014

Nope, I am not disagreeing with you... but I am disagreeing about what you think the author is trying to get across. His "No-change Christianity concept, where "So many claim Christ today with no evidence or change in their lives" is stating SAVED but STAGNANT. So, I think he is stating that we are saved but not growing (i.e. changing) in our Christian faith or walk.

Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 24, 2014

Thanks Jeff for clearing that up. Of course I agree with what you are saying. But my issue from the beginning was that if the author does mean what you believe he does, he could have made it a little clearer in my opinion. I wasn't quite sure what you meant and I said such in my first reponse to you. Again, thanks for taking the time to clear that up.

Chris Perkins

commented on Jan 5, 2019

If i may interject for a moment. I think what's stated is being interpreted incorrectly. I don;t believe he's saying that your actions or obedience grants you salvation but rather we should preach that when Jesus saves us, there ought to be a visible difference in us. That we can't be saved and continue to be the same. The word that if any man be in Chris he is a new creation. Yes, we an be saved and sin, but the difference is that now because of the Holy Spirit, there is conviction. The writer is simply saying that we should not preach that you can receive Christ and there be no change. Many want a religion of comfortability. My former pastor once said, "a religion that don't cost nothing ain't worth nothing". Accepting Christ requires a change. Not a change that we provide but one He provides. Therefore if anyone desires to remain completely as they are then they should not surrender to Christ.

Eric M

commented on Jan 24, 2014

This is a timely and excellent article for our generation. I am joining this discussion from South Africa...I followed some discussion going on here is like arguments about grace and work. We know that to be saved one must confess Jesus Christ as Lord. Can Jesus be your Lord and you don't do what He command? Luke 6:46

Dennis Cocks

commented on Jan 25, 2014

He can be your Savior and you can still disobey. The verse you quote in Luke isn't about salvation, but discipleship. Look at 1 Corinthians 3:1-15. This speaks of the carnal Christian. There are envyings, strifes, and divisions. Then in verse 15 it talks about rewards lost for living a carnal life, but they are saved. If any works are involved for salvation we are ALL in big trouble because God's standard is PERFECTION ALWAYS and NONE of us will EVER be perfect this side of heaven. 1 John 1:8-9. If we as Christians live a carnal life then God will certainly chastize us (Heb. 12:6-8. Don't take me wrong. I am NOT saying we are free to sin and live anyway we like. As I just said, God will spank us and it will not be enjoyable. But do not mix law and grace in our salvation. We are not saved by living for Jesus as Lord.

Rev. Dr. Theophilus Lambo

commented on Jan 31, 2014

Thanks Steve on your submission based on long term observation and experience which cannot be fully realized or appreciated by many pastors with limited exposure, no matter how spiritually gifted they may seem to be and this is also quite understandable. To start picking each topic for scrutiny and comment is to lose the focus of the challenges facing the Christendom today, even though these problems or challenges were in existence during the time of the early apostles. We must however remember that there are two main types of ministries around today, one established on man motivated love where the motives are mainly for selfish gains. And the other established on Christ motivated love, where the spirit of Christ, the, Comforter which is the spirit of Truth, is constantly abound to guide the church and this among other things depend on the quality of the pastors messages to the congregation. Motivational sermons do not have to be a salesmanship package to promise and assure the congregation prosperity without sacrifice. At the same time it should not be a spiritual warfare where the pastor lashes out at the congregation, with condemnation. It should be able to fulfil all the ingredients enumerated by the author where the spirit of Truth and Christ is allowed to manifest. Apostle Paul wrote in Philippians 1.15-18 Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will, the latter do it out of love. Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice. As long as is Christ that is preached, that is what matters, except that when a leader is not in Christ motivated love, how can such a leader radiate love or display servant leadership traits. It is not possible to give what you do not have.

Charles Waters

commented on Feb 19, 2014

It is hard to know what the author meant in point 2 without his input but Phil.1:6 says that God has begun and will perform His good work in us until the day of Jesus Christ. That "good work" is conforming us into the image of His Son. (Rom. 8). That is sanctification. Salvation is immediate, but sanctification is a process. I don't have a problem with the way this was stated. Eternal life is a "gift". It cannot be earned. It can only be received by grace through faith.

Mikeey Stoney

commented on Aug 23, 2019

VCF founder Steve murrell is a founder of this SYNDICATED ESTAFA CHURCH USING TITHING METHOD and many forms of manipulation and money making church. BEWARE PUBLIC ESPECIALLY IN THE PHILIPPINES: Back in 2000 I joined this church in manila named Victory Christian fellowship or VCF and their names in abroad is Every Nation Ministry. I just feel so bad about this church for fooling the public by saying that when you don't give 10% of your income, you will come under God's curse as recorded in Malachi 3:10 but the worst things here is they never recognized the redemption of Jesus Christ because for them as long as they can make money to their members then that is thier very goal as a matter of fact many entertainers are giving huge amount of money and these so called pastors stays in condominium and drives luxurious cars. One bad things that make me feel so bad here is that the leaders as gossiping their members but they used to encouraged that people must not gossip. Thy treat the members as slave but once the member becaomes good in their doctrines then they will make this member a pastor to become one of them. Pastors here are very arrogant, filthy rich because they robbed their members in modest way. As a researcher, I discovered so many things about the evils of this churches operating globally especially in the Philippines where the main headquarters is located but take note that it is founded by an american like myself. The founder is Steve Murrell. This story was narrated to me by a former church leader. I had to translate it to English. It's a story of how VCF - Lipa started and how Positions were STOLEN from the Original Church planters. A true story of Manipulation, lies, slander, covetousness by the current pastors of VCF. Its very similar to the story of how Rice Brookes stole the church in Tennessee. Bethel. How Rice Brookes manipulate himself into Bethel, start replacing a lot of key leadership and some manipulating them to become his yes men. It is also a similar story of Phil Bonasso, how he snaked Tom. Funny how Lipa Batangas - pastors learned and discipled real well by Phil Bonasso and Rice Brookes Robert started a small group in Batangas City, he met Ever, Illo, and Anthony. The group was becoming a church because of more and more people coming in Batangas, then some rich people from other churches decided to help and joined Batangas. Since the youth ministry in Lipa City failed and not growing because of Louie's leadership(Louie is the youth pastor of Lipa before), Louie saw the opportunity in Batangas, so he let go of his youth ministry and start ministering in Batangas. Louie ask Raymond de Guzman (Senior Pastor of VCF Lipa) that he wanted to plant a church in Batangas, of course Raymond agrees. Then slowly louie start to invade the lives of the christians in Batangas, he hired Illo and Ever as his full time staff, disciples were stolen from church leaders by Louie, then rich businessmen thought the elders were like the same as their old church. Since they assumed that position. ALL of a sudden, the church start to run differently from before. Now people starts asking questions about Louie, Even his own staff start to question his leadership inside the church.( sound like the Holy Spirit is making them think on their own). Complaints against Louie started to arised inside the church. After manipulating and conquering the people sa Batangas. He now ask Robert if he can be the pastor of VCF Batangas. Robert said, go and ask the senior pastor, Raymond. What Robert did not know is that Louie and Raymond have already talked, that Louie will become the pastor of VCF Batangas. It was a setup. Everybody was shocked when Manny Carlos ordained Louie as the pastor of Batangas, since they are expecting Robert to lead batangas. There were church leaders who were wondering why they used Manny Carlos to ordained Louie since Manny Carlos is a Bishop of Manila not the Provincial Bishop . The Provincial Bishop is Juray Mora. Juray Mora is the one who was supposed to ordain .Some church leaders concluded that there is something fishy going on, Manny carlos is somewhat related kay Raymond de Guzman, church leaders suspect that Raymond talk to Many Carlos to ordained Louie. After that Robert let go of Batangas and focus his ministry in Lipa. After that more and more complaint start arising against Louie, (louie is known for his manipulating and controlling behavior), complaints against his full time staff, the elders, Then louie starts blaming church leaders a common practice among church pastors in VCF-EN . The Blame game started. Because of Louie leadership, the rich businessmen start leaving the church.Some church leaders went back to Lipa. Staff resigning left and right. Most of the crowd in Batangas now mostly young people are now being exploited by Louie. Robert return and focus to VCF Lipa, Raymond is threatened of Robert's leadership. Most of the volunteer followed Robert, most of the people are moving sa afternoon service, Thats when Robert preached. Suddenly Raymond starts to reshuffle the preaching schedule and volunteers, People were being surprised that Raymond would preached in the afternoon. People attend the afternoon service to hear Robert preached not Raymond. Raymond said "We don't announce who is the preacher anymore, We just pray who is going to preach that day ". But the truth is he want to stop people from transferring to Roberts service. Even after the abuses, manipulation, being taken advantage of, Robert still remain Loyal to VCF. Raymond asked Robert to give up his MPD so Lipa will put him in full time staff, fully paid by the church. So Robert followed Raymond advised despite of the whats happening. Like a Sheep led to a slaughter. Because of Raymond's Jealousy. Raymond tried to find ways to bring Robert down. And one of them is he saw Robert borrowing money from one of the members (Though I was told, this was paid). And according to Raymond, it is against church policy. ( Though it is not sin to borrow - coveting another's anointing and position is sin - Thou shalt NOT COVET) Robert was put on disciplinary action for "borrowing money". Even though VCF pastors and top leadership often borrows money from people inside the church. Robert is NOT allowed to do this. Robert thought this disciplinary action is ONLY termporary but is is not. ALL of a sudden . VCF Fort ( Steve Murrell's church ) called Robert for a meeting and was forced to resign. And also FORCED him to sign a resignation letter and other documents that he "borrowed" money. That is why he is no longer a pastor. Robert try to talk to Raymond what is happening, Robert said to Raymond, "you ask me to give up my business to enter full time ministry, you ask me to live in a expensive house which we can't afford, then you just going to get rid of me just like that ? then Raymond replied "Robert I don't want to work with you anymore" Then Raymond stop communicating to Robert. Robert and Raymond are neighbors and he is Raymond disciple, Raymond REFUSED to speak to Robert. ( whatever happened to the preaching of Love covers multitudes of sin? Borrowing money is NOT even sin ) . People in Lipa starts asking where is robert, then Raymond announce the congregation that Robert is no longer the pastor of Lipa. Raymond is giving half truth. Raymond telling people that he is under MPD but the truth is he is still the president of his father's their company and he did not give up his career unlike what he teaching to his disciples who is entering into full time ministry to give up their business or career. Robert realized he has nothing to feed his family. Then Robert and his family left VCF, according to former church leaders most of roberts disciple remain loyal to Raymond hoping to become pastors. Now they were kicked out and Raymond has started to replaced them. The cycle goes on. =============================================== Its funny how "borrowing" money has become sin to VCF top leadership in Steve Murrell's church. But Coveting, stealing, adultery, fraud, greed, Slander, envy, materialistic is NOT. Truly God's Word have been replaced in this ministry. VCF ministry has now gone from bad to worst. From bad to evil and wicked. One of the teachings in VCF, especially by Steve Murrell. It is LOVE covers multitudes of sin. Steve Murrell gives these VCF top leaders, a license to SIN. A license to cover up sin and illegal activities inside the church. And every VCF pastors knows this. When the Apostle Peter wrote that scripture, no where in their mind that it meant a License to Sin and doing illegal activities. It meant patience. Patience is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Being patience of each other's flaws for God still is working inside them. Example. I am patient for another christian who is addicted to alcohol. The Holy Spirit is still working inside of them. I am patient for baby christians. Who still have bad habits that the Holy Spirit is still working on them. As Apostle Paul talks about us, summing up to be like Him. OR our goal in God is Christlikeness. We are His inheritance. The Holy Spirit that is deposited inside of us is working toward christlikeness. (Only if we are willing to be conformed to Christlikeness and this is HIS Will) Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, [e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Love covers multitudes of sin. IT IS NEVER a license to sin nor a License to Cover up of sin. Because if it is a License to cover up sin then there is NO NEED FOR REPENTANCE. The person who is sinning does not need to repent, he / she will keep on sinning and teaching others to do the same. And when get caught, it is a license to cover it up, nor speak against it. This is totally against the teaching of Christ. Which Jesus clearly said, if your hand sinned against you CUT IT OFF ! If your eyes sinned against you pluck it out !. Jesus is very clear, extremely clear of His stand against willful sin. Jesus never taught cover it up. In fact, Paul said this. 1 corinthian 5 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d] =========== As christians and a member of the church, if I see a pastor, who is a WILLING Participant of sin. That pastor CAN BE JUDGE inside the church. God and His Word gave us the right to judge that person inside the church. Borrowing money is NOT sin. Unrighteous judgement is. unrighteous judgement comes with slander. Last edited by ginger1; 03-28-2011, 06:20 PM. Tags: None ginger1 ginger1 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 176 #2 03-29-2011, 04:11 PM Do be aware that in this cultic enviroment, almost every pastors in Every Nation Ministry are very threatened when this is discuss openly. They would start spreading slander and accuse you of gossip. This was Phil Bonasso's tactic, even Rice Brookes. It worked pretty well for over the years, people pretend not to see anything nor hear anything, even though their conscience is nagging them that something is very wrong. EN - VCF pastors still does this practice all the time for "CONTROL" and "Manipulation". Though gossip is NOT in the ten commandments, but thou shalt not covet is. You simply do not covet other people's position and anointing inside the church. Another one is You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. VCF pastors constantly bear false witness against people inside the church. Phil Bonasso, Steve Murrell, Rice Brookes have done it. They have done it against me, former pastors and former members. To know if these people are telling the truth. It is to go the very person whom they are speaking against and ask them point blank if it is true what these leaders were saying against them. Example, the top VCF leader spreading lies that my husband went up to them and told them that he is divorcing me. Well that is absolutely not true. We just celebrated our 20th wedding anniversary . And what is so amazing is, we Don't fight nor argue. Our marriage is far better than any of those top leaders who constantly bicker and fight. Another example, these top leaders spread lies about Tom Siratnak who was a former pastor. According to the VCF top pastor, Tom went up to them in tears, begging for forgiveness for exposing them. Well that is not true because I am discipling his wife for more than ten years now and we are best friends. So I know whats going on and I told Tom what VCF pastors are saying. He was furious at the lies that is being spread by these top leaders. My suggestion, DO NOT BELIEVE. As Christians we live in transparency. That is why Jesus called us the Light of the world. When you are light, you can't hide, you have to be transparent and honest. The VCF leaders does not like to be confronted. If they threaten you of gossip when asked about certain things, then its time to LEAVE the church. If they give you an answer, then go investigate if its true or not. American EN members learned our lessons NOT TO TRUST the top pastors any longer. That was hammered to us for years and years. To Just trust them. Not anymore. After all the lies and illegal activites by these pastors. victoryfort.org,

Mikeey Stoney

commented on Aug 23, 2019

I have been in vcf for a decade and graduated 2 years bible school called "enli" in vcf, their god is their stomach, they don't act as the shepherd of the flock but as a hired pastor wc is biblically known as the "caretaker" who allows he sheeps be eaten by wolves! we all know that there is no tithes highlighted in the new testament because it was part of the law of moses which jesus has paid once and for all and the tithes was given to the jewish people not to the christian like the pharisee whom jesus rebuke due to hypocrisy. every nation church or vcf has no check and balance for they choose their leader only if they are a "yes men" which means they are paid then they must abide the norms of the church instead the teachings of christ such as they preach scary thing if you don't pay or give tithes you will be a curse!! which contradicts the teaching of jesus in john 10:10 for christ said he came to bring life to the fullest and abundant life then how can you be a curse curse is the man who gives tithes that is against his heart says paul for any1 who follow the law instead of grace is a curse! google it! the god of these victory pastors is money and we all know we cannot serve money and god. also when you give never do it out of obligation, compulsion, or regrets for god loves a cheerful giver and god never commanded as to give what more if tithes as this is not biblical as far as new testament law of grace is concern. tithes comes from the law of moses and the church in vcf uses it to scam its rich members and also to the poor. they are what the book of revelation called as the beast! going further, all pastors in victory are hired pastors and some are getting their livelihood iby scamming members to support them which is called "mpd".. I also notice many pastors are arrogant and you cannot approach them because only leaders can do it as they uses the leaders to escalate their evil to educate their members to give tithes so their god is money. members are not allowed to approach pastors but they advise the members to talk to their leaders and these happens in poor churches but to the rich members are all welcome to approach pastors! may the people open their eyes and may god destroys the evil works of this victory christian fellowship and known to the world as every nation ministry, victoryfort.org

Mike Brenneman

commented on Mar 22, 2022

Let's separate the message from the messenger, because I know nothing about Steve Murrell. The message seems to put Christianity in the truth that comes from the New Testament. Life in Christ is dedicated living--meaningful living. I tire of hearing arguments for and against saved by faith or works. Can the bible be any clearer about saved by faith? Heb 11:6. We have a purpose and a plan. Certainly we must warn against earning your salvation, but this article is not addressing that. A hearty Amen! to "Seven Secret Pulpit Sins"