The Great Series

Paul Nirom

commented on Jan 15, 2022

My question is as follows. If Jesus worships the Father, and Jesus is I AM... and Jehovah is I AM. That makes Jesus Jehovah. Therefore the Father is NOT Jehovah. Jesus is the Son of the Father therefore Jehovah is the Son of the Father... and since the Father is God whom Jesus/Jehovah does the will of the Father. Did the Father ever have anything to do with mankind? The only time we heard the Father's voice was at the Baptism of Jesus and on the Mount of Transfiguration. And if Moses spoke to Jehovah who is Jesus Christ, and the Son is the mediator between The Father and mankind... then the Son of God who is Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament and he spoke for the Father. Right?

Revd. Martin Dale

commented on Jan 16, 2022

Paul, Thank you for your comments. I think we come from different starting points, so I think I need to set out where I am coming from. In traditional Christian theology, God is Three Persons - The Father , The Son and the Holy Spirit and those Three Persons together form one God (referred to by theologians as the Trinity). I think you have a different understanding of God to me on the persons of the Godhead How is it possible you may well ask to have three Persons in One God. For me the best analogy to try to understand the Triune God (the Trinity) who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit is like looking at a complete egg. The egg has three components, the egg yolk, the albumen and the shell. The shell is as much egg as the albumen, as is the egg yolk but each has a different function. Now I will agree with you that the term Trinity is not used in Holy Scripture. But the Triune God is revealed. Take Jesus' baptism in Mt 4.16 which reads like this "As soon as Jesus was baptised, he went up out of the water. At that moment the heavens opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him. And a voice from heaven said This is my Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased" All three Persons of the Godhead are present at one time in this event Now to your question, may I please ask you in turn, where do you find Jesus actually worshipping the Father. For example, in Mt 4:10 during Jesus' 3rd temptation Jesus said "Away from me Satan! For it is written Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only" He is NOT saying in that passage that He (Jesus) is worshipping God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. He just says to Satan - you need to worship the Lord God. I think that is an important distinction. But as a practising Jew of the day, it is fair to assume He did. Why Philippians 2:7 says this: Instead He (ie Jesus) gave up his divine privileges; He took the humble position as a slave and was born a human being. When he appeared in human form, he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a Criminal's death upon a cross. What do you understand worshipping to be. Giving thanks to God the Father, listening attentively to what God the Father says. Jesus modelled this for us. Now to get back to YHWH (you refer to as Jehovah), the revelation of the Lord (which is the term used for YHWH because no practising Jew dared to used God's name and even today they refer to God as G-D) In the Old Testament, when Moses meets the Angel of the Lord in Exodus 3 v.2 , this is just one of the theophanies (Visible manifestations of God) in the OT. And this is where the Lord reveals himself as "I am" (Ex 3:14). Let me quote a theologian Maxie D. Dunnam in the Communicator's Commentary - Exodus on page 64 of her work. Here she says commenting on this passage: For many years theologians have discussed and debated the identity of the "Angel of the Lord" that appeared to Moses "in a flame of fire from the midst of as bush". In some passages of Scripture the angel appears to be different from God (Exod.23:20-23; Num 22:22; Judg. 5:23; 2 Sam 24:16; Zech 1:12-13). In other places God and the Angel are identical and interchangeable (Gen 16:7-13; 22:11-12; 48:15-16; Judg.2:1; 6:11-24; 133-22. Was this the pre-incarnate Son of God speaking? Could well be. Now Jesus says that only God is good (Mk 10:17-22). And in John 10:11 calls Himself the Good Shepherd. A claim to being in nature God . But if you are not convinced that Jesus claims to be God you just have to look John 8:48-59, especially v.v. 58 and 59 The Jews immediately recognised that he was calling Himself God when He said "Before Abraham was born , I am" as they tried to stone him for blasphemy To understand the mediation of Jesus on our behalf, I find this story most helpful. A Korean pastor told me this story, when I was still a Patent Attorney working for a Swiss Multinational. In the 4th century AD in Korea a man had two sons. The elder rose to become Chief Justice in the land and the younger became an infamous bandit. The elder brother loved his younger brother but was unable to persuade him to change his ways. Eventually the younger son was caught and brought before his brother, the Chief Justice. Everyone in the courtroom thought the younger brother would get off because it was well known that the Chief Justice loved his brother But at then end of the trial, the Chief Justice sentenced his brother to death. On the day of the execution, the elder brother came to the prison and said to his brother “Let’s swap places”. The younger brother agreed thinking that once they realised that it was the elder brother, the execution would not go forward. On he went up on the hill to watch proceedings. His brother was brought out at dawn and to his horror executed. Filled with remorse, he ran down the hill and told the guard his name and that he was the criminal who should be executed. The guards said to him. “There is no sentence outstanding on anyone with that name” In the same way, Christ has died for our sins so there is no sentence outstanding. All we have to do is to accept his death in our place. It certainly helps me to understand how Jesus can be both Judge and Saviour. In the Trinity, the three Persons of the Trinity are so intertwined that Jesus could says to Philip "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" (Jn 14.v. 9) Jesus was sent to earth on a mission which was to save those of mankind who would receive Him. The idea that God is not three Persons does not sit at all well with the New Testament. Only the concept of the Triune God makes sense when for example Jesus said to the disciples in John14:25: All this I have spoken while I was still with you. But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have said to you Please do feel free to come back on what I have said Blessings Martin

Revd. Martin Dale

commented on Jan 16, 2022

Paul, I had my response nicely parcelled onto paragraphs and with the right indentations. I am sorry it has come out like it has.